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Hi everyone, welcome to Around the Spectrum, where parents, pros and those in between pull up a chair for honest conversations, grounded guidance and real stories about raising and supporting autistic kids.
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I'm your host, wendy Manganiello.
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As a parent, marketing leader and longtime autism ally, I know how overwhelming and isolating this journey can feel.
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That's why we're here, because when we sit at the same table, we understand more and judge less.
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This episode zooms out a bit.
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We're talking about the realities of recruiting in the ABA and how it impacts real families.
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If you've ever wondered why does this feel so hard, or is anyone listening?
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This conversation is for you.
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We are joined by Cassie Kane today.
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Cassie is an experienced recruiting leader with over a decade of expertise and talent acquisition, including extensive work within the ABA field.
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She has designed and led recruitment strategies that connect families and providers by building strong, high-quality clinical teams to serve children on the autism spectrum.
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Throughout her career, cassie has specialized in optimizing hiring processes, training recruiters and filling critical roles that ensure families have access to compassionate and skilled care.
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Welcome, cassie.
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Hi Wendy, thanks for having me.
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I'm very excited.
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Cassie and I did previously work together and we got on well together as soon as we started working together.
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So I really tried to make sure that I have high-quality guests on the show, and so I immediately thought of Cassie when I wanted to do a recruitment focused podcast.
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But I want to get into your story a little bit.
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Can you share with us a little bit about your journey into talent acquisition, specifically how you got into ABA?
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Yeah, definitely, I've been in recruiting for about 14 years.
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I think what really drew me to ABA was having that direct impact with working with getting the right fit, getting the right candidate to work with those families and the kiddos.
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I think the people drawn to this type of field have just a really special thing about them they're motivated, they really want to work and work with these clients and make a difference in these kiddos' lives.
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If you're talking to people all day, like I do as a recruiter, talking to these people that have this motivation and this passion, it's so easy to do.
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It makes my job super easy.
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But I also just I love having that touch point on being that person that can help choose the right person with the client, give that family what they need so they can get the services they need.
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So I've been in the ABA field for about 10 years now.
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I've done the kind of bigger companies, I've done more specialized type of work for a different company, done the startup thing.
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So it's been fascinating and I don't see myself leaving anytime soon, that's awesome, and I know that recruiting an ABA is not the easiest field, with very high burnout rates and a lot of companies trying to win over the same BCBA, the same RBT as other places.
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So that's what I'd love to talk about ethics and impact, because it's a very competitive field and so trying to keep it ethical is really super important.
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You've said that recruiting isn't just about filling jobs.
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It's about shaping care for kids.
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How do you see ethics and hiring directly connected to the outcomes of families for kids.
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How do you see ethics and hiring directly connected to the outcomes of families?
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Yeah, I think a lot of what I've seen when working with companies recruiting is seems like it's rushed, when the corners are getting cut, when we're trying to place somebody that maybe isn't fully prepared to go into those roles, we need to make sure that we are taking that time and slowing down and getting that light person that's going to be in line with those family-centered values, getting that care that they need, focusing on that and then also just making sure that we are getting the training done too.
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If we get somebody in there that maybe doesn't have that experience yet but they're very passionate about it, we need to make sure that we're getting them in there and then, if that's the case, making sure that we're ethically training them, giving them all the information that they need, making sure that we're doing everything on our end background checks, we're screening these candidates, we are putting these candidates into people's homes, into schools or into a center or a clinic that are going to be working one-on-one with your child.
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So it's important to not rush those things making sure that we're getting that right candidate and it's going to be a good fit, and because we don't want it to be a liability for the company, we want to make sure that we have that right fit for that person.
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That's very important and we'll get into what parents can ask about.
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But that's so important because then there's also the ethics of the job has to go out to everybody.
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But that doesn't mean everyone is the right fit for a particular family, because parents have rights to ask for certain needs, especially if it's cultural, or some parents only want females working with females.
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Other parents want males only working with males.
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Sometimes there's language barriers.
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Other parents want males only working with males.
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Sometimes there's language barriers.
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So asking all of those things is part of the challenge and making it ethical on the side of actually hiring people.
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Especially with BCBA recruitment.
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Right now, with the pool that we have, there's definitely way more need than there are people that can fill those needs.
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So a lot of the time when you get a candidate in at the BCBA, you're so excited because maybe a company has had this job posted for three months and it's the first BCBA that they've spoke to and they're not checking references.
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They're like, oh my gosh, we got a BCBA on the line, let's bring her in.
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Let's bring them in.
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So it's just really important to again don't rush it.
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Make sure you get that perfect fit for sure.
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In that comparison.
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Is that what makes it shorter to recruit in ABA than other healthcare industries?
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I would say for BCBA recruitment it's a hard job.
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First of all, it's a very demanding job.
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You have to get certified, you have to get your master's degree.
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This isn't something that someone can just step into.
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This is a commitment.
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It takes time, it takes money, it takes all that energy to get get that BCBA level.
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So companies have been trying to grow people into becoming a BCBA.
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That's a big thing that we like to advocate for.
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But again, that takes time and your kiddo needs care.
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Yesterday, two months ago.
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Bcba recruitment is well-saturated and there's a lot of competitors.
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So I would say that is a big piece of the challenge for hiring for BCBAs With RBTs and behavior technicians, more on that entry level, something that you can see is similar.
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There's a lot of competition.
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There's a lot of other companies that a behavior technician or an RBT could go to.
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But the other piece is an RBT and a behavior technician position is classified as an entry-level position.
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So the other piece to that is making sure that you're asking the right questions and getting the feel if that candidate is going to be a good fit, even if they don't maybe have years and years of experience.
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I like to call it that it factor.
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You can train people on ABA, you can train them on those basics, but you can't train someone to be fun.
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So it's kind of just a matter of getting your recruiting team, getting those recruiters to ask those right questions, instead of thinking well, you've used ABA technique in the field more of like hey, if you were in this situation, how would you handle this situation?
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Not only just working with the kids, but also working with families and family members.
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There's a lot of things going on, especially if you're working at home, for sure.
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So when I worked for one company I did some pre-interviewing and I also ran a center for a little bit, and so we would have people come in to see if they liked the center and have them shadow somebody just to see, especially for the BTRPT positions.
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And I was amazed at how many people would go to school and I think it was a post-COVID thing too.
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They went to school, hadn't done their required BCBA supervision hours and got into the center to see if it was a good fit to do their hours, and they weren't prepared to work with the kids that we had have.
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Because applied behavior analysis in itself is very scientific and, if you want, that's great.
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Applying that in real life is a really different thing and that's another thing I'm sure that you ran across is that they look great on paper, but getting them into a center and really making sure that they fulfill, as you said, fun, do they really like children that much and will they work with the kids that are not a cute, cuddly two-year-old?
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It's very different to work with a nine-year-old who's acting out and being able to be willing to work with.
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Both sides of that.
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Early intervention, the cutie pies, the two to six.
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You know they still have their own special challenges, but when you're getting into like 12 to 22 in that range, that's a whole nother level of challenging and getting people in and training.
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Training is so, so, so, so important, especially when you have to learning about safety care training, ppi training, physical restraints and that sort of thing.
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When you're in those types of situations, keeping yourself safe and the kiddo safe and other people in the classroom safe, other people in the clinic, it's a hard job.
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It's a tough job for sure.
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To that point sometimes and this is just an interviewing in general, specifically for BCBA or BTs what kind of questions should they be asking companies?
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I've talked there's a lot of companies opening right, there is definitely a need, right?
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I was just talking to Cassie before that, reading a very old book called Good to Great, and we were kind of assessing the ABA providers and which ones are really good, which ones are really great.
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Is any of them?
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Because there are people who generally get into this field because they want to and they love the kids and the families, and there's ones who are like, oh, this is a safer bet in health care and moving over to ABA because other industries are not doing as well.
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And so what is a new, especially a new BCBA?
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What do they have to ask?
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Or an RBT to make sure that they're going into one of those more ethical companies?
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Yeah, especially for BCBAs, when you're going into interviews, it's not a matter of the company interviewing you, that's a piece of it, but you should be thinking about it as interviewing the company.
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Ask me about expectations without billable hours, getting that realistic idea of what that workload is going to be like, because that's going to really tell you about the quality of care that you're going to be providing.
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If you are being asked to have 35 hours as your billable hour requirement every week, that's not going to leave a lot of room for supervision for your VPs or your RVTs, or supervision for yourself growth opportunities, continued education, that sort of thing.
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But also ask about what support the company can provide.
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Do you have ongoing education?
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What does supervision look like for you?
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What kind of tiered program are you working with?
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How closely are you working with the client?
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Getting clear expectations of what your role will be as a BCBA, especially if you're on the greener side of BCBAs, you might want to have that clinical supervisor that's overseeing you for that period of time, especially depending on how many BTs and RBTs you're going to be supervising.
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So I think, asking those questions about the workload, asking those questions about billable hours, asking those questions about just general, what supports are in place, because if you're working for a company that's going to provide those things, they're going to have that information for you.
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I think those would be top things I would do for bcbas.
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For rbt, I would say again same thing in regards to how much experience you have.
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If you're coming in and you're more of a green bt and rbt to the field, I would definitely ask questions about training.
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If you're more of a green BT and RBT to the field, I would definitely ask questions about training.
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If you're not certified, I would ask about getting certified, whether that's your certified behavior technician, your registered behavior technician, your board certified autism technician as well.
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All of those should be something that the recruiter is definitely aware of and if they offer it, they'd be able to give you information on that.
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And I would talk about same thing supervisory.
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How much supervision can I get, especially if you're a candidate that's interested in furthering your education, if you're wanting to get that certification or further your education and become BCBA, the companies in place that have a solid structure are going to have information on how you can further education, how they can support you and furthering that in the ABA field.
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For sure, both of these positions.
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Anytime you're interviewing for a company, you should be interviewing that company just as much as they're interviewing you.
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My son, who I talk about a lot, and he's on the spectrum, obviously, and he's interviewing and I'm like what questions do you have for the company?
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That's important skill to learn how to do and not go into a job like it's the only place in town.
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Which brings me to my next question what would be a red flag?
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I would say big red flags for either position, BCDA or RBT.
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Going into the field is going to be seeing how much that company is focused on filling hours versus providing care.
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For example, if they're pushing you into the field very quickly, not providing much training, supervision or support, that's going to be a sign that they're prioritizing getting these numbers filled, getting these hours in, over preparing you and providing support.
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The more time that a company is going to take to put into you in the beginning.
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So, whether that's training, whether that's support, whether that's walkthroughs, that's going to be a good sign that they're going to continue and that you'll be able to grow in that company.
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They've thought these things through.
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Caseload is going to be a big thing.
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So if you're a BTR, you're an RBT and they're assigning you five different clients each week, it's almost impossible to provide that consistency and individualized care for each of that child's needs if you are spread so thin throughout the week.
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Any role is going to be super important to have supervision.
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If a company doesn't offer clear, consistent supervisory support, that's going to lead into burnout on both ends.
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It's going to be a burnout on the BT and the BCBA side of things, but also on the family and their services and the client itself.
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So I would say, if they're focusing more on quantity versus quality, then so maybe I'd pump the brakes on that one, thank you.
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And that really rolls to the next question, because I think that all of these are important things to consider.
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I'm in quite a few BCBA groups and a lot of anonymous postings from BCBA because they're upset.
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They're like is this ethical, is this okay?
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Because they don't know it and they're tired and they're burnout.
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And then we have a whole tier of BCBAs who are going telehealth because they're so burnt out which may be fine and right for the right family that doesn't mean that it's right for every family and then a lot of the adolescents being on the RBT.
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As a parent, I think it's really important to know what questions to ask when filling the role for RBT or BT.
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That one question right there are they a BT or RBT?
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Because there is a difference and it's going to make a difference in, possibly, the amount of training they've gotten.
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So what other questions should a parent ask?
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Who's new to this?
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When I was new I didn't know to ask the questions.
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You don't know what you don't know.
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So what should parents ask when they're asking who their BCBA is and who their RBT is?
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I think parents don't realize how much power they have in the process and they should feel confident in asking those questions.
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This person's going to be working directly with your child.
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I'd say a few key things to ask would be what's the certification?
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Are they an RBT?
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Are they a CDT, bcat?
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Do they have any certifications?
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I would ask about the training.
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What kind of training does this person have before they come into my home?
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You can definitely ask about what kind of experience they have or you can request specific experience.
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You can request that they're certified, request information about how much experience your BCBA has, what their background is.
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Then you can ask these questions what kind of ongoing supervision and support do they receive?
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For parents, you can share preferences of gender, environment, time, that sort of thing.
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I'm sure trans are all familiar with those processes, but you are the one that's going to be advocating for your child.
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The worst thing could be that if you ask a question, they don't have the answer to it right away, but it's still so important to just ask those questions.
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It is a competitive industry, so if you're not seeing that quality care that you expect, you can always request for another clinician, another BT, another RBT.
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At the end of the day, you have the right to advocate and get those questions answered.
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You should know what kind of certification that person has before coming into your home.
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That's what I would expect as a parent.
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That's what I would want to know for sure.
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I've had these conversations with parents before when they don't know what to ask and they get completely turned off.
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It's really the person that they were paired with, rather than what ABA could really do for a child.
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I've seen this where parents are like nope, don't worry, aba for me.
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That was terrible.
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I've had parents tell me they were the one training their BT and that's just a lack of clarity from the company or from the person that they sent.
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I've seen miracles happen with ABA, which is fantastic, but miracles can't happen if they don't have the right person.
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One of the other things is and we talk about it a lot when it comes to kids with autism, this is a very high turnover rate industry, which is frustrating because there is a certain dependence.
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Your child gets on the consistency of care and if you suddenly don't have somebody because you can't get somebody hired for three months or we get six months of great care and then the person moves on.
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What should the parents ask about turnover and what should they look for if they're worried?
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definitely one of our biggest challenges in ABA.
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It's super tough on families, it's tough on the carers.
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Having those frequent changes can be really detrimental for the client From my perspective.
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So parents should feel empowered to ask companies these questions directly and you can ask a company about their turnover rate For both RBTs and BCBAs.
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Every company is aware of their turnover rate.
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The taboo thing you don't talk about but everyone knows about it was definitely something parents should feel comfortable discussing and following up with.
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How are you supporting that staff retention?
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You can also ask about average length of tenure for clinicians, what systems they have in place to ensure continuity of care for their therapist.
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If a therapist does leave, that's another great question to bring up.
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So if I do have a therapist that leaves, what's that process look like?
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What's the wait period for getting a new therapist?
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These are all really good questions for parents so that you can prepare yourself if these things happen.
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Sometimes a therapist leaves because there's so many reasons why a therapist could leave.
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Good questions on supporting, seeing how the company supports their staff in training, supervision, case loads.
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All of that is going to be assisting in reducing that burnout.
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Asking those questions about turnover rate is definitely a good move for the parents.
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And then the follow-up question of what does this process look like if I have a therapist in need and what's that timeframe look like?
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Those are really good questions and the company should know the answer to those.
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That's so true.
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And the fact of the matter is not all of us are going to stay in the same job forever and they're going to grow and move.
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So there needs to be that expectation there that's more likely to happen than not happen, so that you as a parent don't set yourself up.
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But all of those questions will definitely help so that you can prepare yourselves in that wait time if that does happen, so that you're not surprised, right?
00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:00.830
And what's their policy about how people leave?
00:20:00.830 --> 00:20:08.777
Not that people follow the right policy, see, when it comes to doing this, it's good to have that information, even if they have a substitute list, right?
00:20:08.777 --> 00:20:17.611
Do they have two people pair, or is there a list of a few of the other candidates that could step in case there is a cancellation, kind of thing like that?
00:20:17.611 --> 00:20:27.924
So a little bit of your perspective is after years of recruiting an ABA, what's the one thing you wish both parents and clinicians understood better about the hiring process?
00:20:28.306 --> 00:20:38.535
I think the one thing I wish parents and clinicians understood is that ABA, hiring an ABA isn't just about filling a position.
00:20:38.535 --> 00:20:43.115
It's about building a relationship that impacts the child's growth.
00:20:43.115 --> 00:20:45.853
From my perspective, that is what I do it for.
00:20:45.853 --> 00:20:49.234
From the outside, recruiting can look like a numbers game.
00:20:49.234 --> 00:20:51.132
It can look like, oh, he's trying to fill these needs.
00:20:51.132 --> 00:21:02.277
It's really about getting those clinicians to are prepared, supported and genuinely committed and matching them with these families, giving them that consistency and trust.
00:21:02.277 --> 00:21:10.470
For clinicians, that means asking the right questions to make sure that company will support you long-term.
00:21:10.470 --> 00:21:16.933
So, parents, knowing you have that right to ask about who's coming into your home, who's providing and advocating for your child.
00:21:16.933 --> 00:21:25.153
When you have both sides, the process becomes less about transaction and more about creating stability and giving quality care for your kiddos.
00:21:27.986 --> 00:21:38.059
So the last question I felt the wisdom seat leave one piece of advice about ethical recruiting for families and clinicians, something they can use right now.
00:21:38.059 --> 00:21:38.641
What would it be?
00:21:40.424 --> 00:21:41.988
You've got to interview these companies.
00:21:41.988 --> 00:21:48.798
Whether you're a parent trying to find the best company for your kiddo and getting them the best care, don't be afraid to ask those questions.
00:21:48.798 --> 00:21:50.320
Same with clinicians.
00:21:50.320 --> 00:21:53.153
There are so many companies, especially in this industry right now.
00:21:53.153 --> 00:21:56.073
Get those questions answered.
00:21:56.073 --> 00:22:00.252
You're going to know when it's an ethical organization, it will welcome these conversations.
00:22:00.252 --> 00:22:03.729
It will be transparent with you about the training and support and expectations.
00:22:03.729 --> 00:22:05.651
It will be transparent with you about the training and support and expectations.
00:22:05.651 --> 00:22:11.115
If you're having these conversations with these companies and you feel dismissed, if you feel lost, listen to those red flags.
00:22:11.115 --> 00:22:12.577
Your voice matters.
00:22:12.577 --> 00:22:15.882
You have every right to advocate for what your child needs.
00:22:24.885 --> 00:22:30.494
If you're a clinician, you have every right to advocate for yourself as a professional and get those questions so that you can provide the support for yourself.
00:22:30.494 --> 00:22:32.818
Thank you, cassie.
00:22:32.818 --> 00:22:34.902
And this is me speaking to the parents.
00:22:34.902 --> 00:22:43.671
I have seen what long-term 40-plus hours of training looks like for a BT or RBT, and also when companies only offer non-comprehensive hour.
00:22:43.671 --> 00:22:49.031
There are some great training programs out there that some of these agencies use and they are tried and true.
00:22:49.031 --> 00:22:59.655
They have new training and on the floor so you're learning, and they have the BCBA there to make sure that they're testing and seeing and advising how you could be a better BT.
00:22:59.655 --> 00:23:04.607
And then there are some places who will send people into their home after only an hour of virtual training.
00:23:05.609 --> 00:23:08.273
And parents, it's your child, it is your right.
00:23:08.273 --> 00:23:11.458
Make sure you ask those questions before anybody comes in your home.
00:23:11.458 --> 00:23:13.240
Don't worry that you send them off to a center.
00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:19.897
Make sure that you know how much training they're getting as they're working with your children, because it does make the difference of progress.
00:23:19.897 --> 00:23:22.271
Thank you, cassie, so much.
00:23:22.271 --> 00:23:25.448
I appreciate you coming on the show today.
00:23:25.448 --> 00:23:30.432
This has been great and I hope it helps families who are navigating this process.
00:23:30.432 --> 00:23:32.314
This goes for parents too.
00:23:32.314 --> 00:23:40.221
This goes for ADA, ot, slp, you want to ask all these questions because you'll feel better about the care your child is getting.
00:23:40.221 --> 00:23:42.163
You're your child's best advocate.
00:23:42.163 --> 00:23:43.023
So thanks, cassie.
00:23:43.025 --> 00:23:45.007
Yeah, wendy, thank you so much for having me on.
